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June 07, 2006

Comments

jaz

I guess our only option is to wait and see what the outcome of the trial brings, but from what i hear and see, even in the mainstream media, it doesn't look to promising for the soldiers on trial. I can't say I would've done the same thing if i had been attached to that unit and right in the situation. I mean, c'mon, these poor guys have been stuck there for what, 3-4 deployments? They must be going crazy. One thing i can understand is that these troops are under intense pressure, having been there so long, among an enemy they can't see, even though I'm not saying it's excusable under the harsh conditions, I don't know that i wouldn't have done the same thing. I might have been one of them.
We need to get them the hell out of there and let the Iraqi's be forced to get their shit together, or die trying. That will motivate them to get organized.

gringoman

Hey Jaz,

Two questions:

(1) I thought you were anti-military, so what do you mean by "I might have been one of them?"

(2)Soldiers who are presumed innocent until proven guilty--no matter what Congressman Murtha or Pacifica says--are now in shackles in solitary confinement in the brig at Camp Pendleton, CA--treatment far worse and more demeaning than what the muslim detainees get at Guantanomo. Does this look like a case of politically correct detention?

ps. gringovision is with-holding any kudos to George Bush on today's announced Zarqawi zapping until the above-mentioned soldiers are un-shackled and treated at least as well as the jihadis in Guantanomo.

Phillip Wedeen

Gringoman:

What an injustice!!! Send the Haditha murderers to Guantanamo at once! And the 'jihadists' to California where they can be made to suffer with all of the millions of other non-citizens!
Quick man! The is military corruption afoot, a wrong to be righted.

jaz

Answer to Gringomans questions.
#1. I never said i was anti-military. I just don't like it when it's used for unjust purpose such as bushes lies, which he can't seem to keep straight. We need a military to protect our country and help other countries when it's appropriate and JUST.

#2. You didn't actually expect OUR soldiers to be treated the same way as "the evil doers" [as bush so eloquuently puts it], did you? Tell me you're kidding, that a man of you're backround is being fececious. And how 'bout that "see? i told ya so" look on bushes face when Zarqawi got his ticket to virginland. He looks like a little kid in a candy store. Like he's FINALLY right about something. What a jerk. (bush, not you.)

jaz

Oh yeah, Dan, to finish answering your 1st question. The reason i said "I might have been one of them", I meant that i probably would've cracked under pressure. I won't pretend to be special ops material here. Some say war can either make or break you. I think it might have broken me under these soldiers conditions. And mind you i say MIGHT, not definitly. So gimme some slack already ;-)

gringoman

Wedeen,

are you now living full-time in Kookistan? Looks like you've gotten naturalized and now have a permanent residence. (We do hear the socialized meds up there are a bargain.) Even if affirmative action got you through law school, you'd be expected to understand that these soldiers are innocent until proven guilty. Or is it different in Canuckia College?

By the way, are you or your crazed mentor going to represent the muslim youth now being "persecuted" in Canada? There's a case to inspire any lunatic leftniki. Even your subsidized media may have informed you that these muslim youth hoped to blow up any infidel---even "progressive" kufars like you and, to give something extra for Allah, planned to behead the Prime Minister. Here's your chance, once again, to take a stand against honesty, decency, integrity, common sense and sanity---and call it "our struggle against the racist fascist imperialists."

Why not go for it? You could be a hero in bin Laden's cave.

gringoman

Hey Jaz,

if it's slack you want, it's slack you'll get. POC (Point of clarification.) From what I've been able to gather so far, these American soldiers were not "special ops." They were mostly straight Marines (which is plenty "special" enough.) One is a 20-year old Naval with a wife and kid, two Marines died in his arms, and he is now being chained like no lethal jihadi is in Guantanomo, including leg irons, and his fine lawyer Jeremiah Sullivan tells about it at www.patriotdefensefund.com

As for "breaking under pressure," nobody knows about themselves or others until they go through it, or even what it means, aside from the stereotypes used by the hacks with an agenda, like what Amy does on 'Democracy Now.' Is this why the so-called "corporate media" (a favorite Amy Goodman label) today are always doing stories showing how the U.S. military is "bad" and very, very rarely touch any of the many stories of heroism, decency and generosity? Or maybe you've heard of these which I, somehow, have missed?

jaz

So, do you think our soldiers are being treated unfairly? Is that what you mean? That's a tough one to respond to. Since i don't know from experience what's worse, only from what I've seen and read from ALL news perspectives, the detainees were severly abused.
Our soldiers are not being abused. But i think if their treatment is being seen as harsh, maybe it is a political thing, to try to make the US military to look "fair". Maybe it's a move for better treatment of US prisoners, if there ARE any, trying to keep them from getting tortured and/or killed. Maybe it's their way if trying to level the playing field. Who knows for sure? Just a thought...not an opinion. I know I'd rather be shackled and in solitary confinement waiting for my upcoming trial in my own country than in gitmo not knowing anything. Hell, 3 of 'em just committed suicide. Why, could be a number of reasons. Speculative too.

gringoman

After all the the tit for political tat, the relentless duel of Agendas, and all the "experts" on our military in Iraq, many of whom have never been in uniform or wanted to get near a uniform,and like the Clintons have detested the military, (having a pretty watered down concept of honor themselves,) the fact remains that even the muslim prisoners in Iraq want to be captured by the Americans, not their "muslim brothers." This has been reported and confirmed many times. I have no way of "statistically" proving it, so Lawyer Smartie-Pants can dispute me. But anyone in contact with reality in Iraq---instead of politically correct filtered lens or Democrat Underground or The Daily Moulitsas view of the universe---will understand. Hey, Jaz, among your many "sources," are there any who are actually in Iraq? Do you read any of the tell-it-like-it-is milblogs? You know, like real Americans, real soldiers, talking about real things? You might be surprised at what reality looks like to people who are in it, far from the isms.

scott edwards

"..muslim prisoners in Iraq want to be captured by Americans and not their muslim brothers. This has been reported and proven many times. I have no way of statistically "proving" it."

Of course you can't prove it because you made it up! You COULD prove it by posting some of that which you say was "reported and proven many times". But you won't because you can't.
Running on ideo fervour can only take you so far.. then reality hits you.
You don't need a smartie-pants lawyer to tell you what is plain for all to see.
So why resort to bullshit, Gringoman?

gringoman

Comrade Islamo-Advocate Eduardos:

You're getting fecal again. Relax. Why get so "turd-world" defensive? Remember, this is not one of your classes on "critical thinking." Around here you have to make sense and demonstrate at least elementary logic.

Pay attention now. I stated Proposition A. I admitted that a "smarty-pants" could dispute it as I did not have the statistics to back it up---not even the "statistics" which are often selected and cherry-picked by smarty -pants to make a point for smarty agenda, even if you imagine, as legalniki would like, that there can even be such "statistics."

Professor, you made the point I already made myself. Thank you. The problem is that you seem to think this allows you to make the contrary point too, i.e. Proposition Anti-A. Professor, you should have stopped when you were ahead. Instead, you stupidly plunged forward into the muck, evidence-free. By going fecal on us you clearly insinuated that I speak from ignorance and/or agenda (a condition you'd know something about.) You did not produce a shred of evidence to prove that the opposite of Proposition A is true. You simply made the assertion that since I did not bother to produce any of the teeming anecdotes (which you or even a Wedeen could then smugly dismiss as 'anecdotal', that my point must be worthless. This, of course, is a typical tack. Applying courtroom procedure to real life. And it's got its place in law ( not to mention legal fees.)

The problem, Professor, is that you wouldn't leave well enough alone by simply stating that I had not met the evidentiary requirements of whatever court you ply your, uh, business in. (You're still going heavy on the Castro chiles these days, are you?) You charged me with not proving my case (something I had already admitted) and then you mucked up the obvious and my outspoken honesty by going "turd world" in a way suggesting that the opposite of my point is true (without a shred of evidence on your part for this attempted defamation.)

On the matter of who prisoners in Iraq prefer to be detained by---the Americans or the others, I stated my view clearly and un-sneakily. It may be true, it may be false, but it's my view and I stated such, clearly. You agreed with me that I didn't produce evidence. (Thank you for clarifying that.) But you flubbed miserably by going 'turd world' when you failed to produce a shred of evidence that the contrary is true. In other words, you showed us, yet again, the true legalniki. Your weasel premise is that because I did not "prove" my point, then my point, ipso facto, must NOT be true. You sounded just like your kooky protege. Professor, you know how distressing it is for me to have to instruct the learned and educated. That's not really my job. Laymen should not have to do this. Yet it must be done here. Professor, you flunked.

Phillip Wedeen

Looks to me that he was only pointing out that Gringoman is making-up facts and was not attempting to prove the counter arguement.
If this trite tactic is being employed in an effort to outsmart someone who has at least 50points more IQ than the Gringoman, it clearly is not working.
The length of the poor Gringoman protest belies that.
Merde de toro, Gringoman, et cette tout pour cela!

BTW, your government certainly feels a bit more than probable cause over these Haditha killers!
(Unless of course you claim that the murder of defenseless children is S.O.P.... something your army has been up to since the indian wars) The leg irons and solitary confinement is for a purpose. That is, to keep these killers off of the streets. You know that republican american governments' main job is to 'provide for the domestic tranquility'.
Perhaps you can whip up enough sympathy to allow this viscious lot to cheat the hangman. Edwards is working overtime at the Hague to see that their handlers are not so lucky.

jaz

Re; "Hey, Jaz, among your many "sources," are there any who are actually in Iraq? Do you read any of the tell-it-like-it-is milblogs? You know, like real Americans, real soldiers, talking about real things? You might be surprised at what reality looks like to people who are in it, far from the isms."

To answer your question, I'm not a reporter who has real "from the horses mouth sources." I'm just an average american who reads what is available (from the right to the left,) And try to draw my own conclusions. There are a lot of news services that are covering the "war", and i try to stay informed, but i don't get obssesed with trying to find out every detail about what it's like to be a soldeir there or what they do or don't do. Nor do i pretend to. Just thought I'd clear that up for ya.

gringoman

Hey Jaz,

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I was not talking about being a "reporter," or digging up "special sources," or even the Left and Right dodge. I thought all I did was ask if you read any of the many milblogs which are easily accessible in this New Media era, and demand no more time or effort than any other "source." Since you seem to have strong views on the war, it just occurred to me that you might be interested in hearing from those who are actually in it. This would then give you a perspective you could weigh against the ideologues (of right or left) and the so-called "professional reporters" or the typical anti-Americans, like the Cana-kook Wedeen. It's called fleshing out the picture, or broadening the perspective. Maybe I was wrong? Maybe you'd rather not bother with a soldier's point of view, since he's "too close" to the reality we get from Amy Goodman etc?

gringoman

Wedeen,

If your master Eduardos has the I.Q. you dutifully claim for him, why hasn't any of it rubbed on you by now? My previous post gave you a chance. You could have tried to make a logical case for your master's use of the Weasel Ploy. Instead, like a faithful lapdog, you just repeated your "high I.Q." master's inanity about my "making up facts," a charge I had already clearly pre-empted and won't repeat again here for the perennial undergrad.

You mean Eduardos is at the Hague defending jihadis, instead of with you, defending the Islamic faithful who hoped to behead your Prime Minister?

By the way, I don't suppose a Toronto kookista is interested in confronting real Canadians (or one who has become a naturalized American). I'm sure you'd rather pontificate about Afghanistan from a distance and not get close to real Canadians there. But I've got an idea on how you can be nice and safe and try to "enlighten" a born Canadian at the same time. Interested? He's in Baghdad. You dodged this once already. Here's your second chance. (You may consult with your Hague-bound handler.)

jaz

Maybe I'll take your advice and check out some of these milblogs. But it just seems to me that there are two ends of a spectrum about being a soldier, especially in wartime. Between very willing to go to war and actually enjoy killing the "enimy", to being so freaked out they break down and lose it, developing PTSD and every state of mind and attitude in between. I think we are both right. Maybe i could get a better perspective from a soldiers point of view, But i don't limit myself to listening to just Amy. Thanks for the advice.

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